Current time: 03-29-2024, 11:08 PM
AC: Style balance
#16
I agree with what has been said ... and I feel what you guys mean ...

one thing Im really dissapointed in is the adherent useless of some stats which I really looked on during the the AC1 years... eg: the movement speed stat ... *sigh* I know and accept that boosting is always better than walking/running but still why make light high drain legs with a decent speed, its only worth is in missions .. legs with decent speed albait hovers ... seem rather useless now and even hovers are hardly used to good effect... *sigh* I miss the good old days were I got thru the ac arena with little need of boosting .. I know its noobish but still this irritates me quite a bit..

as I read somewhere before AC is 10% walking 90% boosting

It really just seems unfair... IMO
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#17
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Clone, are you referring to how you could use a playstyle like the guy in the vid above and still win? I admit I used to play like that too. But now that I'm replaying MOA, I can confidently say that MOA needs just as much boosting as any other AC game. I remember that when I was playing MOA as a noob, I had to cheese my way through most of the upper echelon of the arenas, either by blading them in the parking lot or letting them kill themselves in the mine field. Now, AIs that I considered as badasses before are mere pushovers. >_<

I think this increasing need to boost has more to do with our evolution as players rather than an evolution of Armored Core's game engine.

Then again, in MOA, LN-2KZ-SP (lightweight leg with 4400 capacity) had an insanely high running speed. -_-
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#18
can't see the vid... (dail up) from which AC game is that?

anyway my contention is simply that some stats never get utilized like the movement speed of most lightweight bipeds. I don't know it just seems that most of the light weight bipeds are just dead weights.
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#19
that was an MOA vid of a guy basically running up to his enemy while shooting the Karasawa and then using the PLUS blade and still winning. >_<

Well the reason to use lights isn't for their running speed stat but rather, you use them for their high turning rates and low base weight (The weight of the leg. Not the max leg weight stat) which allows for some really nifty twitch dodging that isn't possible with other weight classes.

With the way FROM "balanced" the stats, it's obvious that they didn't want lightweight bipeds to be flying WHILE jinking and moving fast. However, there are still ways around that problem. Proof? Leperman's PACT 2.1 design.

---------------------------------


On to other things:

While lurking in ACO recently, I came across a pretty interesting thread by CCR, which is quite applicable to our discussion here.
Source: http://www.armoredcoreonline.com/acforum...opic=10733

In summary, he is merely wondering if our perspectives on AC are different from the perspectives of the Japanese developers and their players, as a result of cultural differences, leading to the differences in AC trends among Japanese and non-Japanese ravens.
C.C.R. Wrote:This a tad risky topic as it deals with ETHICS. Something not often brought up in american society.

My concern is that due to possible lack of understanding of JP ethics that other cultures, specifically that of America, tend to be a tad narrow viewed and unreasonable in their desires in productions from Japan as far as games are concerned. Our concern for this topic will specifically be out this situation in regards to the entire Armored Core series (being posted here in PS2 section, granted the PS2 line is the most expansive and well known). We all should have heard wind of the stories of honor in the Japanese gaming business with Nintendo and SEGA already and know from some of our attempt at further enlightening ourselves (some of us anyway) to the ways of Japanese culture that they overall the view points are different from what most may be used to.

Could it be that in our desires and ideas of fairer game play and more connected gameplay that we are failing to look at the game in the same perspective as it was intended? Or, is FROM truely off in their idea of how to produce and balance the leviathan of a game they have and just yet to really narrow dow their beast of an idea into a very desireable form? For years we've complained about this and that and restricted and banned, etc. So, what do you think their view is vs your view?

Absolutely no culture bashing, please.
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#20
Hmmm... Nothing about AC4 in here? Sad to say, AC4 is my VERY first AC game, so I can barely grasp what you guys are talking about. But based on my experience in AC4, there really are a lot of play-styles available in the game. What sucks a lot is the fact that there are VERY few parts to choose from. Less than 10 cores I believe. After a while, one design seems to look like the other, making each AC look... generic... boring in a sense. However, I can say the game-play is very solid, possibly the fastest-paced AC game I've seen (based on videos from SL and LR). Anyway, the sad part is that while online competitive play is open to players, not all of them are "real players". I'm talking about people who just copy some other person's design, changing the color, a few tunes and then saying it's their original design. Even play-styles are being imitated all over. Let's take the over-rated duel rifles for example. With the speed and freedom of movement available in the game, they provide constant stream of damage and are hard to avoid because of the auto-lock and auto-tracking system in the game. With that, you can basically hold down the fire buttons and, holding them down for the rest of the game, focus on movement and evasion.

Stat-wise, some stats can basically be ignored. I may not know much about these stats myself, but one stat I have never bothered with is the base movement speed of the legs without the boosters. You can basically boost forever in the game WITHOUT running out of energy, labeling the base movement speed of the legs as nonexistent.

Anyway, that's all I can say for now. R.Leonhardt know much, much more than I do, and with what little I know about past AC games, I don't think I'm in a position to say anything about them.
[All systems online. Kojima output normal. Synchronizing AMS Compatibility... Done. Engaging Primal Armor... Done. All systems green. Firing main boosters.]
"Blackwing, let's fly!!"
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#21
Well unfortunately, most of us still don't have next-gen consoles. *sob sob*

Even though you may not be familiar with previous AC games, pretty much all the points you brought up are still applicable to our discussion anyway.

Copying designs and play styles is something that has been happening since the very first Armored Core. It's something that happens in pretty much any video game and even in real life. I'm not saying it's a good thing... only that it is inevitable.

Take U.S. online play in Last Raven, for example. Since some of their best players are fans of overboost (and really good at it too), several other players got the impression that "overboost is top-tier!" leading to the majority of Western players using OB lightweights/mids.

In Japan, however, this wasn't the case. Hanger cores (the UA, in particular) on mids (usually) were what they considered top-tier. Hence, their designs had a tendency to look like one another too.

As for our local LR scene, I can't really say whether or not we're doing it better than Westerners or the Japanese, and it doesn't really matter much. I'm just happy that the designs I've seen in our tournaments are quite unique, with each being a reflection of that player's personality rather than being a copy of something already proven to be effective.

Now about useless stats... Well they've been in pretty much every armored core series. Recoil control, max core weight, arm "accuracy", etc. etc.


EDIT - I just realized another point to show FROM's inherent bias towards humanoids: Every top-ranked raven in the arena of every AC game ever (as far as I can remember) has been a midweight biped.
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#22
For the record, I don't even own a PS3 or a X360. Heck, I've been stuck with my PS1 for 9 years! The only way I ever got to play AC4 was by going to R.Leonhardt's place. I tell you, the guy has pretty much everything @_@
[All systems online. Kojima output normal. Synchronizing AMS Compatibility... Done. Engaging Primal Armor... Done. All systems green. Firing main boosters.]
"Blackwing, let's fly!!"
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#23
NiX Wrote:EDIT - I just realized another point to show FROM's inherent bias towards humanoids: Every top-ranked raven in the arena of every AC game ever (as far as I can remember) has been a midweight biped.
You've just debunked From's hidden programming for players to use bipeds. Expect men in black suits to come knocking at your door soon enough. Smile)

I've read CCR's thread, and yes it is nearly a parallel of where this discussion has gone too: it's all a matter of perspective, really. You decide what parts to use, and you go play with them because that's what you want to do. Simple enough.

The problem arises when a country with a large audience and the means to make a very large impact in a small amount of time (that is, the US, with the help of ACO and YouTube), becomes the only source of what can be considered legitimate information on something. In comparison, you have a country with a very large audience but with limited means to influence people outside of its borders (that is, Japan). They may have the best players (and with good reason, one: the Japanese have always been good at games, and two: they made the damn game), but with very little desire, incentive or capacity to share this knowledge with the rest of the world, except maybe to the fans who are willing to search for it, this becomes all for naught. Hence, a monopoly is formed on the "right" information and the "right" way to play. Players are ingrained into accepting so-called truths about a game before they even have a chance to experience it for themselves. There becomes only one source which dictates, and that's never a good thing.

EDIT: The above paragraph speaks in terms of the general. I'd like to point out the individuals who prove that this is not always so, but they're there if you look for them, so I won't anymore.

Of course with online play opening up more and more in AC4, people got to interact more and look at the way the "other" plays. And true to form, one side didn't really take to the way the other side played. Ah, what can you do.
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#24
I lean twords qauds and RJ's most of the time,but bipeds have many advantages over them (More mobility then quads,and more leg capacity then the good reverse joints)Bipeds are tooooo good.In fact most fo the enemy's we fight in these games are bipeds.With the exception of rim fire.I like quads but the LGl doesnt seem like enough reason to use them.I basically want something with lots of firepower,big nasty weapons,and still have some mobility. (Am i asking for to much?)
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#25
(09-28-2008, 07:55 AM)Tadakatsu1Honda Wrote: I basically want something with lots of firepower,big nasty weapons,and still have some mobility. (Am i asking for to much?)

Not really. A decent quad with a GL, Ladon, RS and HP already gives you ALL of that.

Still, I agree that bipeds are sometimes too good... for their own good.
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#26
But thankfully, the LF71, Lizard, and A2 quad prove that quads can go toe to toe against even top tier bipeds. Wink
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#27
Play style balance, huh?

On looks:

Guilty as charged. I use humanoid legs because I'd like to indulge in the illusion that I'm using a Macrossevagundam Orbital Frame. I have my limits when it comes to balancing looks and stats though, at times, the coolest looking part can be the suckiest. So, I'll settle for the next coolest part with the next to suckiest capabilities. Yeah.

On play style:

It's easy to say what my playstyle is, it can be summed up in generic terms like mid-close range fighter, missiler, bombardier, etc. However, my what my playstyle is not the question. Let me just tell you how I formulated my playstyle... In just three steps.

Step 1:
I think, in the beginning of my AC days, I just built a frame that looked good and developed a playstyle around it afterwards. I saw AC as a game where I can build my own frame. Just so happens that the frame I wanted to own looked like a Macrossevagundam Orbital Frame.

Step2:
So, I played and thus developed a style to suit the frame I built. Fortunately, I had AC buddies that were diverse in their tactics, so I was exposed to different situations and learned to adapt -- using the frame I built. My frame had lots of weaknesses. So I had to make up for them in terms of manual control. Low def? Evade. Slow legs? Boost-hop. Low weightcap? Adjust the weaponry. Weak weapon? Make every shot count. The list goes on.

Step3:
Finally, I tune my frame and its stuff to make making up for its weaknesses easier; moving, turning and evading are easier, red locks are are instantaneous, range blindspots are minimized, etc.

Basically, these three steps repeat whenever I think of a new frame to build. Whether there is a point to using them aside from aesthetics or not, I still use humanoid legs because I want and choose to. I don't think I have to rationalize using bipeds because I'd only be wasting my time, with all the arguments abound. I'd much rather enjoy AC with my friends than try to fend off an "only faggots use bipeds" argument, if there was one.

On Imba parts:

Generally, the use of cheesy parts is frowned upon, but their existence in the game cannot be denied. One of my friends used "imba" parts and for a time he was unbeatable. But alas, the rest of us got so used to exposure from these "imba" parts that their performance was nerfed to that of an ordinary assault rifle or a mediocre arm because the rest of our game caught up. So, we agreed that there would be no restrictions when it comes to part usage. "If you're so irritated that he wins because of specs, then use the same specs. Don't worry too much about diversity because the 2 frames will never be the same' the runners are different." So I said. besides, you get bragging rights if you win with a non-imba configutaion. Even if the score was 20-1. Yeah.

For me, It was narrowed to 3 choices:

1. Do I want to win?
Sure, gear up on parts that make winning easy.
2. Do I want to use the Macrossevagundam Orbital Frame?
Let's make a cool looking but sucky stat frame.
3. Do I want to win while using the Macrossevagundam Orbital Frame? Tongue
See Step 3 and there will be a possibility.

I choose 3 most of the time. Yep, I'm a greedy man.
To sum it all up, I went (and still go) for aesthetics and adjust my play accordingly.
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#28
While its easy from going uber among friends, when there is something big at stake I doubt anyone would hold any punches unless they have the utmost confidence in their capabilities. Also, dominating playstyles are an unintentional result of From's meddling and poor understanding of the gaming mechanics they have created.

When From created the Battle Arena tournament back in 2004 for NX in japan, almost all of the preliminary winning contestants entered in the LHT92, A2 quad legs (noticeably with no back weapons, they were used for turning and their armor), or a COUGAR2/DINGO2, all of which equipped the CICADA2 head. Core parts varied a bit with the E2, and SELENA for most designs. Weapons were either MG arms/dual GLLs/LX/dual WYRMs/SPARTOI/SIREN2 (in case someone used ECMs. Also, I'm pretty sure they banned the M2s in the process and may have banned others, but I'm not too sure) all of them running on either the FUDOH or LOTUS with the GULL and the RAGORA (sometimes ANANDA, but that was a rare case). Of course it was understandable since there was something huge at stake since it was a nationwide tournament, and only natural that people put their best foot forward (meaning that all the designs almost looked alike with all the best parts strapped on in one way or another). The big winner though: Mangetsu's hover (The AC looks sexy too BTW Tongue, he beat Imori with this design).

CICADA (Or was it the CICADA2? anyway its tuned for vs. ECM)
SELENA
CETUS
WALRUS2
D2 (I think, could be another FCS though)
FUDOH
RAGORA
(possibly MEDUSAs or ECMs)
JIREN
SIREN2 (For the vs. ECM stat like the CICADA's)
MV

Tunes prolly all went to cooling and VS ECM for the head.

No one held back with their part selection, but the one who came up on top was an unexpected surprise especially because other configurations were deemed superior to Mangetsu's hover. It didn't have the Dual WYRMs or MG arms (Though I think they got banned midway through the tournament because of overuse I suppose?) but are non the less competitive. In the case of RR though, I think we all stray away from trying to dominate an opposition with the absolute best parts in the game. For the most part, I think finding more creative ways to beat opponents will be a greater deciding factor, and a much more satisfying surprise for both contestants than having people run in expected top-tier ACs.

In my case, I usually go for #3 as well in Kanon's list, do good and look good while doing it. The point of the whole thread though was from the perspective of a competitive AC environment where only the effectiveness of ACs are considered. Dominant playstyles were derived from which AC parts were used, which were more often than the top-tier parts in the game. If there was something big at stake, I'm sure that people will run an ugly AC if it means winning a lot of money. Of course, there will be some who would rather do it with performance and style in mind such as Mangetsu and our very own Dave, and succeed in the process.

I have a question though. The absolute measure of skill between two participants is to isolate all variables not related to skill right? So if everyone ran the absolute same "best/borken" design in a tournament, the one coming on top will definitely be considered the most skillful in piloting a particular design of the bunch and prolly the best pilot. This is derived from 3 things: First is the supremacy of a borken design over all other design configurations possible. Second is the supremacy of the pilot over everyone else. Finally third, which is the supremacy of both pilot and machine over everyone else. Theoretically by achieving the 3rd, one should be able to beat everything that stands in its way, no mater who the pilot is and what ever design they use (assuming that there is no greater pilot and more borken AC than that while removing the map equation from the factors). Just to illustrate, what if both Imori and Mangetsu ran the same absolute best AC in the game (For example, AA with the KSAW mids and the GT00s), would the outcome be any different? Of course, we can't say for sure since there are various specialties regarding to AC design. It may be possible to push a design beyond its perceived limit by a skillful pilot that is more specialized in a certain leg type like Twin-Skies and his quad (I don't think he ever used any other leg type...) or how borken a particular AC is Tongue.

Admittedly, I can imagine this thing won't exactly be fun and ruins a lot more things than just the excitement of playing the game and competition. Part of the fun in competitions is the uncertainty of the victor.
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#29
You guys wanna do something like that sorta soon? All quad or all tank or maybe an all hover tournament? Tongue
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#30
(09-30-2008, 12:26 PM)Lord_Leperman Wrote: While its easy from going uber among friends...
Yep, my AC PvP world consist\s of four people with only two who have any real intention of improving their game. With the PSN net available though, My PvP world is slowly expanding... Along with the bruises on my ass from getting it kicked by Japs.
(09-30-2008, 12:26 PM)Lord_Leperman Wrote: ...The point of the whole thread though was from the perspective of a competitive AC environment where only the effectiveness of ACs are considered.
Yep, I read one poster being corrected for correlateing the word style with visual aesthetics. I'll try to be utilitarian next time I build a frame and get a feel of pure functionality.
(09-30-2008, 06:20 PM)NiX Wrote: You guys wanna do something like that sorta soon? All quad or all tank or maybe an all hover tournament? Tongue

"Battle City Mode"? Yeah, we do that from time to time and it is fun.
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